I recently joined the wonderfully kind and insightful Jackie Baxter on The Recovery Room with Jackie Baxter, formerly known as The Long Covid Podcast, for a conversation about something that can be easy to overlook during recovery: the way we are actually living our lives.
We explored what it means to live more authentically — not as an excuse to abandon responsibilities or make dramatic life changes, but as a way of becoming more aware of our own needs, values and limits.
For people experiencing ME/CFS, Long COVID, Fibromyalgia, POTS and related conditions, this can become particularly relevant. Patterns such as people-pleasing, perfectionism, living according to other people’s expectations, continually overriding our own needs, or feeling unable to set boundaries can all create additional internal conflict and stress.
That doesn’t mean these patterns caused the illness, nor does changing them guarantee recovery. But for some people, they can become an important part of the wider recovery picture — particularly when the nervous system is already under significant strain.
Jackie and I discuss how these patterns can develop, why resentment or emotional conflict may sometimes be useful signals, how fear of judgement can shape our choices, and why meaningful change often comes through small, practical shifts rather than turning your whole life upside down.
You can watch or listen to the conversation below as well as the full transcript.
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Welcome And The Box Metaphor
5:55 What Authentic Living Really Means
16:16 Selflessness, Self-Care And Family
25:18 Childhood Blueprints And The “Shoulds”
34:08 Conflict, Safety And Chronic Illness
42:53 Perfectionism, Social Media And Cancel Culture
49:48 Boundaries, Honesty And Small Wins
54:23 Uncertainty, The Mouse Study And Closing
Transcript
Welcome And The Box Metaphor
Jackie Baxter: Hello and welcome to this episode of the podcast. I am delighted to be joined today by Dan Neuffer, who has been a guest, I think several times before. And I always love my conversations with Dan because we always end up places that we're not quite sure where how we ended up there, but it's always a really, really valuable conversation. So Dan, thank you so much for being here. It's lovely to see you again.
Dan Neuffer: Yeah, lovely to connect with you, Jackie. I I really appreciate our chats. And uh yeah, uh let's let's see where where we end up today. Uh an interesting topic that you've picked.
Jackie Baxter: Yes. And I think this one came out of our last conversation that we had. I think I think it was possibly after we'd finished recording, we would we were tossing ideas around, and we came up with this idea of authentic living, or I think at the time we were talking about living in a box, um, I think was the kind of metaphor that we'd come up with, because we often feel stuck, um, or maybe we don't even realize that we felt stuck. And certainly for me, throughout my journey, this kind of concept of climbing out of my kind of self-imposed box or starting to live more authentically in line with myself and my own needs and my own wants and desires, uh, things that I'd never really been that in tune with before, um, whereas it's now something that I feel like I couldn't live any other way. So I think it's gonna be a really interesting conversation. So maybe we start off with Dan, what do you think authentic living is, or maybe isn't, if that's easier to answer?
Dan Neuffer: Well, I guess look, if I might preface my answer with this, is you know, I think it it matters more than most of us might realize. Um I think there's a group of uh sort of I don't know, engineers and science-based people who think all this kind of stuff is a bit woo-woo or something like this, and like what what does this have to do with my illness? I just want to get well, what do I have to do? But I think it's important to recognize uh that before we sort of get into it in a lot of details, that it can really uh uh uh affect the way you engage in your life. And the way you engage in your life might not be such a big deal if if you're healthy, but when you're sick, these things really, really matter. Now, I think they really really matter when you're healthy as well, but you might not notice that they matter. Yeah, you might notice it 20-30 years down the track and say, I wish I had lived differently. Um but when you're sick, I think it can have a tangible impact on your health and your recovery. And I think that's the case not just with these chronic nervous system illnesses that we deal with. I mean, it's even the case if you have a broken ankle. You know, if if you're spending all your time living to do other things, to be the athlete, to be the the mother, the father, the best brother, the best son, looking after your parents, looking after your neighbors, instead of going to rehab and resting your ankle, you might find out your ankle doesn't get better. And and so I think that that is the first thing. Um I think a lot of people sort of when they hear about living authentically, I mean I think it invokes different different pictures of what it means for different people. Um but I think at the heart of it is honouring yourself. Because you know, we can talk about all the different types of ways that we might not live authentically, but when you really look at it, what is really common about all of them is that there's a sense of self-neglect. Yeah. And uh you know, it doesn't mean that you should be, I don't know, quitting your job or just dumping your responsibilities or something like that. Some people think living authentically, oh, I should be an artist, therefore I'm not gonna worry about you know taking my kids to school. That that's not what we're saying, you know what I mean? Um, no disrespect to artists out there in any way. That is but no, it doesn't mean anything like that. You know, it doesn't mean that you don't meet your obligations, but it it means that you do so in a balanced way. That's what
What Authentic Living Really Means
Dan Neuffer: I think living authentically is, is it's honoring your own needs, yeah.
Jackie Baxter: Yeah, and I like the word balance because that's something that I have kind of learned throughout this process, let's say, you know, the the overachiever, the push, push, push, the I'll sleep when I'm dead kind of thing. That that was me beforehand. You know, there was absolutely no balance at all. Whereas now I'm able to kind of push myself and achieve and want to do all of those things because that is me. But also I'm able to balance it out with sitting on a beach and reading a book and taking time off and unplugging and all of those things. Now I'm not perfect, I'm not always good at all of those things, but I think you know, balance is a really important word. And I think I I love what you were saying about you know, living for yourself, because I think you know, we we live in a world where self-sacrifice is kind of applauded often. You know, you you you give things up. Oh, aren't they such a you know, a good person to do that? And I don't I don't think we shouldn't think about others and we shouldn't do things for others because those are good things to do, but we shouldn't do that at the expense of ourselves. And I think that is possibly where that balance starts to slide, right? Where we put everyone else before ourselves. And um, you know, it kind of comes back to that analogy of the the oxygen masks on the aeroplanes, right? Um, you know, put on your own oxygen mask before helping others. Because if you are always putting other people first, then you know, something's gotta give. And if you aren't ever able to put yourself first, then then that's you know, that's not a good way to be living, certainly not long term. So I think I think there's a whole other side to this as well. But I think this is certainly a really important one where we are able to live our lives for ourselves.
Dan Neuffer: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting how you mentioned that about the selfishness. And it's it's unnatural, you know. It's unnatural to be selfless all the time. Like, you know, somewhere along the line, we've come into this world of virtue signaling. It's almost as if we've forgotten how to measure and know whether we're good people or not. And because perhaps we've lost, you know, maybe it's religion or maybe it's other things that a lot of people feel a little bit like they have no measuring stick. And for whatever reason, maybe it's a breakdown in community. I I'm not exactly sure. But then there's this constant focus on being you know, not being selfish. But you know, being selfish is not only essential and not only what every single animal does, but go further to say that you're actually setting a bad example for your children if you're not selfish. Like, like how are you gonna teach your children to survive? You you want your children to be able to look after themselves. If if all you teach them is that you always have to look after other people first, this this this is just it just doesn't work. Yeah. Because and it's not it's not a selfishness thing. It's if you want to serve your community or your loved ones, you you must your biggest responsibility to your family, in my opinion, is to look after yourself. Because they can't do it for you. No matter how much they try, you know, they can't get you to to be kind and look after your health. Yeah. And so if you don't if if you don't do it, you're kind of hurting them in in a roundabout way. So I think we we need to reflect on this whole aspect, yeah.
Jackie Baxter: Yeah, I I think you're really right about, you know, and I I don't have kids, but I have worked with kids and I observe a lot. And you know, kids are incredibly intuitive. I don't think we give them enough credit. You know, they're incredibly intuitive, they don't always know how to kind of understand what they see, um, which sometimes actually makes the problem worse. Um, so because because they pick up what they see, right? If they if they see a parent or a person that they spend a lot of time with, you know, never respecting themselves effectively, not looking after themselves, always give, give, giving, um, then they're gonna start to pick up on that being what they're supposed to do. And, you know, in the same way, I mean, this this was kind of the other side that I mentioned a moment ago, you know, why why do we think we need to be selfless or to put other people first or to not respect our own needs? And, you know, partly it's what we see out in the world. If we see other people on Instagram or on the news or whatever, you know, we start to think, oh, maybe I need to do that as well. But I think it actually goes far, far deeper. And it probably goes all the way back to our childhood and what we witnessed there. And, you know, everyone's childhood is different, nobody's is perfect. Um, and that's not always parents' fault. You know, I'm sure most parents are well-meaning. But um, you know, if if as a child you witness, you know, putting everything else before taking care of yourself, or if you are constantly told that you have to achieve, um, or you know, all of these sorts of things, everyone's different, then you grow up with those things and you are taught and you start to put into practice and learn, and then you sort of don't realize you're even doing it, certainly in my case, you know, where actually you have to put other people first and you have to achieve at the expense of all else. So then you end up pushing, pushing, pushing, and health, you don't even think about health. And that's not authentic living, that's living on someone else's blueprint. So, you know, I think that kind of idea of authentic living is if I were, I ask questions about this to clients all the time. If you were to take away everyone else's expectations, who would you be? I think that is what authentic living is to me. What would you be, or who would you be, or what would you do if you were able to live your own life for yourself? And a lot of people find that a very difficult question to answer, understandably. Um, but I think it's a really good thing to think about.
Dan Neuffer: Forget what other people think, forget financial constraints. If you just could do whatever you wanted, what would it be?
Jackie Baxter: Yeah.
Dan Neuffer: And I think you know that I think there's often signs when we're not living authentically. Um And I think it's it it's often when there's this conflict you have on the inside. You know what I mean? Um where you you get these little hints that something isn't quite right. Yeah. There's a lot of shoulds and musts. Um you often say things that you're expected to say, or you know, you struggle to say no to things. And and I think these are sort of the the hints that perhaps we're not really living for ourselves or doing what we what we want to do. And uh and it shows up, it it creates uh problems and I think it makes us uh less valuable for our family, friends, and community. Not more valuable. We think being always selfless is oh be serving everyone else, but if you're not living strongly, not being the best expression of yourself, then you can't be serving others as well.
Jackie Baxter: Yes, yeah, you're right. And you know, c coming back to well, how is this relevant to illness, to long COVID or MECFS or you know, all these conditions? I think the word conflict that you just used is an important one because if we have conflict in our bodies between, you know, if if we're conflicted with maybe what we want and what we feel we should, um, you know, or or may and a lot of these things I think are unconscious. We don't realize that we have these conflicts. Certainly I didn't, but the body starts to feel it, right? And if we are feeling that in our body, then it doesn't feel safe. And that is kind of the crux of it, isn't it? If the body doesn't feel safe, then everything else is unimportant. Um, and I'd I'd love to get your kind of take on that kind of conflict, that safety, you know, does it lead to illness? Is it a product of illness? Um, is it impossible to answer that question because it's so interconnected? Um, what are your kind of thoughts there?
Dan Neuffer: I think it's important to recognize that you know, people don't all get sick because they weren't living an authentic life or anything like that. But I think for some people that is the truth. Not for all, but certainly for some. And I'm certainly
Selflessness, Self-Care And Family
Dan Neuffer: not saying that, well, the answer to recovering from chronic illness is to live your authentic self and that'll make you recover, because that's obviously not true either. Although, again, it is true for some people. Some people will describe it that way. And the reason for that is really how much does it impact you? Like I said earlier, you know, people who are healthy can not live their authentic self and live a perfectly reasonable, okay life, you know. Maybe you have some regrets later in life, you know, but certainly they're okay. I think it comes up in different ways. I I think the not looking after yourself is the most obvious thing. So the simple stress of you should be resting, you should be eating, you should be sleeping, and instead you feel you should be helping, you should be doing all these other things, yeah. And and then you simply don't do what you need, yeah. It's like a diabetic who doesn't take his medicine is gonna go into a coma, right? If they think it's more important to, I don't know, go help Mrs. Smith across the road than to take the insulin, Mrs. Smith might not be getting her weekly food shopping delivered anymore, right? It doesn't work out. So there's that level. I think the other level is that sometimes, like you said, we're not even aware. We have this internal game, this conflict going on, where part of us says, Oh, I don't really want to do this, I don't really want to behave this way with these people, I don't want to just do what they ask me to do all the time, and you do it anyway, because you feel you should, or you're afraid you'll be rejected, or all kinds of reasons. And this internal conflict, I mean, first of all, it takes a lot of bandwidth. Like this whole conversation, forget the battles and the arguments and weighing it up and blah blah blah. I mean, this whole stuff doesn't even happen for some people, yeah, who just authentically themselves. But then when the conflict is very strong and you still don't follow your own needs, then that can start to become like emotional suppression. So it goes from taking a cognitive bandwidth to suddenly being an emotional suppression, right? Because you're not being heard, yeah, your your emotional needs start not to be met. Um, and I think that's when people sort of feel trapped, you know. And here's another sign. I think people often start to fantasize about just living a completely different life, like if they went on a different island or they went away and just left the whole life and lived in a different country, or you know, when you're fantasizing like that, that's kind of a signal of saying, hang on a sec, you you you may not be living your authentic life. Um, I think also there is a loneliness it can create because when you're not being authentic, then the people who connect with you and show you affection and love are not really showing you affection and love. They're showing affection and love to the person that you are being perceived as being, which is not your real self. And I think sometimes that can feel not genuine. Not that the people aren't genuine, but the way you perceive it, uh and I think there can be a l a lack of connection that sometimes people experience. But I think by far the most obvious and you know screaming in your face issue is the physical consequences of not making choices that are appropriate. So in other words, if you were making the same choices for a child that was in your care, then that would be considered child abuse or neglect. But when you do it to yourself, you think it's okay and it's not. So I think these are some of the ways that we can be impacted.
Jackie Baxter: Yeah, and I think that I mean, I I agree I agree with everything you you you're saying here. I I think um there was a couple of things that stood out to me, possibly because they were very relevant from my experience. Um, and and one is that the sheer exhaustion of effectively pretending to be someone that you're not, um, you know, like if you were an actor, you would be paid for that, um, and it would be called work. Whereas often we as humans, often, as you say, unconsciously, are trying so hard to be someone that we think that the world wants us to be, that you know, we we do kind of cover up, or you know, it is, it's pretending, isn't it? And um, and that is exhausting because we're yeah, trying to be someone else. And I think the the other thing that I was thinking as you were speaking was, but but why? And I I think it comes back to it's it's fear, isn't it? It's fear of being seen, it's fear of being disliked, it's fear of being judged, it's fear of being cast out, you know, if you were to say what you really thought, then people might not like you. Um, you know, it's it's that it's that fear. So it comes back to yeah, being being afraid to be yourself. Therefore, we exhaust ourselves trying to be someone else that we think the world wants. And then when people like us for that, um, or they give us credit or they you know try to connect with us, as you said, they're not connecting with the real us, which makes us feel even more afraid to show our true selves, I guess. So we get that kind of spiral of well, I can't show people who I really am now because they like the me that they think is me.
Dan Neuffer: Absolutely. You know, you articulate it so well. It's such an exhausting job. Um, but the message I want to give people is like it's the bee version. Like it's like the no-frill stuff you buy at the at the uh at the supermarket. Do you know what I mean? That's what you're being when you're not being your authentic self. Like people can like it, but really it's then they're not never gonna be amazingly passionate about it. Yeah, and when you can be your authentic self. I think you're gonna do a much better job of being that person than the pretend person that you're trying to be. Yeah. And it's not even just a pretend person. I mean, you know, sometimes it's just this version of ourselves when we don't live authentically. It's not that we're faking everything or but we're not we're not it's like there's a part of us that's bottled up. So we're only showing part of ourselves, we're not fully expressing ourselves to be like a fully alive person. And and you know, a lot of this, yes, okay, it's fear of rejection, criticism, and all of this is amplified by social media. All of this is amplified really in the cultural shift that we see in our society over the last 20-30 years. Like, I mean, if you look at sport and the way people behave, I mean, most people will be thinking that I'm referring to people behaving outrageous right now when I just said that. Oh, yeah, some people they behave disgusting. No, no, I'm actually saying the opposite. Like, people on the whole behave so restrained, it's so
Childhood Blueprints And The “Shoulds”
Dan Neuffer: nice and proper, and you know, and as soon as somebody behaves with some emotion or you know, or let's say they do the wrong thing, even it's like, oh my god, that's like this person is terrible, they'd have to be stopped, they're not allowed to participate, they shouldn't be on TV, you know, at all levels of sport. I mean, is that being fully alive? I mean, I'm not saying we should all behave like mackroe, but maybe I think the society could do with a little bit more mack and roll because he was authentic. Yeah, you know, and and people pulling everything in, and it's like it's like people get upset at the smallest thing these days, you know, like it it is such a hyper um vulnerability, hyper sensitivity, and as a result of that, everyone is seeking to just act really, really perfect, and and they're suppressing their natural expression of being a human being. Human beings are not robots. If you hit the ball out when you want to hit it in, why can't you scream? Look at the kids. Oh, well, we're not kids, we're adults. Well, we're still human beings. Yeah, and I think I think uh so I think there's been a cultural shift. Uh, and you know, these things always swing from one end to the other. But I feel like just like people may have been always really selfish, like if you go back 200 years, everyone was selfish. Because how could you afford not to be selfish? You know what, you're gonna like not give your kids food, they're gonna one of them's gonna starve. But then now, so we go, no, being selfish, that's wonderful, that's amazing. You help the person, which of course it is, right? I mean, I think most good people can recognize that that is a a positive virtue, but it's only a positive virtue if you also look after yourself. And and so I think we've swung too much. The pendulum always goes to the other extreme, and really in the middle is the sweet spot, yeah.
Jackie Baxter: Yeah, so as a society, we've massively overcompensated.
Dan Neuffer: Um yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I think I think you hit it on the head. The fear is certainly up front. Fear of rejection, yeah, and rejection these days is brutal. Like if I look at 30, 40 years ago and someone did something really ridiculously stupid or acted badly, then everyone just goes, ah, wow, blah blah blah, you know, acted badly. You're an idiot. And I don't know. Next week we're talking about something else. But these days, with cancel culture, like that's it. Like, you've got to change your identity and move to another country, you know. And I think this creates a lot of fear in people, yeah.
Jackie Baxter: Yes, and it's it's this fear. I mean, you were talking a moment ago, and you've summed it up beautifully there. It's it's the fear of getting things wrong or making mistakes is making us stop trying. Um, you know, so we're so worried about being perfect and it getting it right that we don't, we it's it's easier to not do it at all, um, or to do it in this really, really restrained way. And and the analogy that I'm thinking of here is um, you know, back in my former life, I did a lot of um recording, studio recording. And um, you know, you would you would go in and you know, you'd do a few takes. And for me, the sweet spot was usually take two or three. Um, take one, I was still getting to learn it. Take two and three were usually pretty good because I knew what I was doing, but I, you know, wasn't getting into the kind of perfectionism yet. And then by takes four, five, six, I was like, I've got to get this right, I've got to get this right, I've got to get this right. And like they might have been technically better, but they had no life to them. Um, so I think it's it's that kind of um you know, being able to be alive. And I think, you know, again, you know, to continue the music analogy, you know, often it's the difference between say a studio recording that might be technically perfect because it's edited, um, versus a live recording that maybe technically there are, you know, a few bits that weren't totally perfect, but think of the life that it has because it's a live situation. It's that kind of exactly the authenticity of that performance. And I'm not saying that, you know, we should do everything live and record nothing, but you know, I I think it's it's um it's something to think about, isn't it? You know, are you living your life in a way that is curated and edited, you know, which we often do, everybody does that, right? You don't put the ugly photo on Instagram, you know, you put the the one that has got the nice lighting where you've got a nice smile, you might take it 20 times before you get it right, um, or you might just not post it at all because it, you know, you had broccoli in your teeth. Um, or or actually, are you are you living your life in a kind of more live, let's say, version, where you're less worried about what people are thinking and more living for you. And I think that is very, very scary because, you know, as you just alluded to, you know, I mean, you know, doing something wrong and looking an idiot, I'm sure, has always been embarrassing. Um, but nowadays it's probably caught on film, it'll be on the internet, it's never going away. That one little mistake that you made is going to exist forever, and people are going to judge you on that forever. Or certainly that's how it feels, right? So that can stop us from doing it. So it is a really, really scary thing, especially if you have those kind of perfectionist tendencies that many of us do. But I also think certainly what I've found is that it has been quite liberating to try to let go of all of that and actually put myself out there and say, this is me. I'm not perfect. I totally screwed that up. I'm gonna own it, I'm gonna be human, and I'm gonna continue with my life. And that's not easy, but it does get easier the more you do it, I think. And I think, you know, what I would love to kind of get into here is okay, we've kind of talked about what authentic living is. We've talked a bit about why we might not be living authentically and also why it can be a really big problem. How can we start to move past that? Like, how do we go from this really inauthentic life that we might be living, which isn't your fault, but it is probably holding you back? How do we start to live a more authentic life? How do we recognize that? And how do we start to try to move forward? Because you know, we can't just say, okay, quit your job, change everything, and tomorrow you're gonna be authentic, you like I don't think that's the answer, is it?
Dan Neuffer: No, I think it's for some people that big changes come down the road, but often they don't. It's often more small things. It's not really about what you're doing on the big picture, although it can be, but it's often more about how you how you do it. And I think one way, first of all, is is is the recognition of when we are not living authentically can be things like we're trying to manage other people's emotions. Right? If you you know we s not only are we fearful of the judgment, but we because of that fear, we're trying to make sure that whatever we say is then well received and that the people's emotions are being soothed, because you know, if they have a bad thought or bad opinion. And so I think these little things are like telltales. I I think other telltales are like when we you know like override ourselves, you know, like we want to say this, but then we say, No, I do this instead, or I say that instead. Um and and it shows up, I think, often like with an internal conflict, you know, like you might start building up resentment. Resentment at different
Conflict, Safety And Chronic Illness
Dan Neuffer: things or people around you, and that resentment is really just a reflection of the fact that you haven't honored yourself, and so you've allowed something to go on for a long time that perhaps you shouldn't. So you resent them for it, but really, if you had lived authentically b by yourself in the first place, you wouldn't have continued to experience this because either you would have put a stop to it or you would have changed the situation. Um So I think these are some things I think it's about just doing a little bit of self-reflections. Um you know, you you start to think about you know what does genuinely matter to you? I wanna just leave us hanging on that thought because you know you have these surface answers that come up. Just just throw those in the garbage. Everyone has those. No, no, I mean what really genuinely matters to you and if you reflect on that more deeply the answers might surprise you. Yeah. And um and also like other things like you know what what responsibilities do you choose? Choose responsibilities. Not be lumped with responsibilities. Yeah, what are you doing because you believe you should be doing it? Um You know, we all have these these parts of us. You know, you see them in different situations or different social contexts or sporting contexts or whatever. But often you may find that there's certain parts of you that never get expression. Maybe you go, maybe your happiest moment in your whole life is in the shower when you're singing at the top of your voice. What does that mean? Yeah, uh you maybe you're a terrible singer and you shouldn't be singing in front of other people, but maybe it means that there's some part of you that needs to be expressed in terms of performing or sharing or you know, and and so I think these are these are the things to look out for in the first place, and then it's about practicing It's kind of about being honest. You know, we We think of being polite, we always have to be polite. It's an interesting thing. It's interesting looking at different cultures. If I look at a Dutch or German person and I stick them in a room with some English people, the English people will say, Well my god, they're so rude. And the Dutch and German people might say, Oh my god, they're so rude. And the reason that they're rude is different because the English people say they're so direct and straight to the point and so crass. And the English and Dutch people might go, Oh my god, they're they're so indirect, they're they're fluff around, they don't tell the truth, they're not honest. Do you know what I mean? It's like, and so there's different ways that we that that that we interact, and I think I think it's about really saying, okay, well, what what really matters to me? Yeah, what what is really uh important to me in terms of how I interact with the world, of of what I want, and then going for that. And and sometimes just saying what you think, um, being honest, but you know, respectful. Yeah, it can be um saying what you prefer is a choice. You know, I I promise you, the vast majority of time people will not care. They'll go, oh, okay, all right, that's fine. You know, and in our minds, we often think it's a big deal to say, no, I don't want this, I want this other thing. Other people can be okay, well, fair enough. Yeah. Um, you're asking for help or or showing vulnerability, saying, I don't know the answer. Yeah, can you help me? Um, or something isn't working for you. Yeah. Something isn't working for you in a job, in a relationship, we kind of just often lump it. You know, we think there's something wrong with us. Which can be true, of course. You know, maybe it is our fault, you know, maybe it's not. But in any case, just trying to suck it up, it's not being authentic. Right? And if you bring it to the forefront and say, hang on a sec, just this isn't working for me, then you can work it out. Is the other parties or party not, you know, being respectful of you and honoring what your needs are, or are you perhaps misaligning what is reasonable? Then you can work on that yourself, right? But if you're not being authentic, you can't solve the problem whether it's them or you, right? You just end up taking it on the chin, and and I think that wears people down over time. Yeah. So these are some of the things I think that come up, and and I think boundaries are a big part of all of this. Yeah. I hear people talking about this all the time in their recovery when they do the program. And you know, we often do like this consultation with people to make sure they're on track. Uh sort of three months into the program. And one of the first things they often say to me is like, oh, I'm really getting some boundaries in place. Yeah. And I think that that that is important. Yeah.
Jackie Baxter: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, I I love the word honesty because I think I think this can often be misunderstood. Um, you know, because I think I think what you're talking about here is first and foremost being honest with ourselves. And that's not something that I think we have often done, probably possibly because we've been afraid to. You know, we we don't want to kind of dig around in our own innards because that's uncomfortable. So instead of sort of honestly thinking about what we want, what we need, what we deserve, um, you know, we we sort of push that all down and think about how we can be selfless or how we can appear how the world wants us and all of those things that we've kind of talked about before. But I think that true honesty has to start internally. It's got to be, you know, really looking into what, yeah, what is important to me. Um, you know, maybe coming back to that question if we come away, you know, if we forget about the rest of the world and everything we've always been taught, who are you? Um, you know, that those sorts of slightly deeper questions that you can start to explore a little bit and come back to that honesty with ourselves, because we can't be honest with other people if we're not honest with ourselves. We can't ask for help and ask for what we need and all of those things that are incredibly important if we're not able to actually know what that is. And certainly that was something that I found very difficult, you know, and I I blamed a lot of other people, you know, and those people didn't help. You know, they were being unhelpful, they were some of them were being really quite difficult and insensitive and, you know, maybe selfish themselves, you know, but at the same time, you know, and that's on them. But, you know, like you said, with the sometimes it's other people, sometimes it's you, I think the reality of it is that usually there's an element of both. So yes, those people weren't helpful and maybe they weren't good. But I wasn't able to understand my own needs and articulate them either. And if I had been able to understand what I needed and ask for that, they still might not have done that, but they would have had a hell of a better chance of being able to help me if I had actually been able to know what I needed.
Dan Neuffer: So they might have it they might have changed course, they might have done.
Jackie Baxter: They might have done if they'd seen it.
Dan Neuffer: Then you might have changed course. Yes. Right?
Perfectionism, Social Media And Cancel Culture
Dan Neuffer: Yeah, but it something can happen where this problem can resolve. And and gee, you know, this is really interesting. I I'm not sure if I ever really thought of it like this way. But you know, in that situation, you end up being you know, you end up in a situation where you basically suffer an unacceptable level of stress simply because you don't resolve it. You don't resolve it because you're not giving them a signal to change their behavior, and you're not making the decision to change it or change your environment so that you're not around these people or whatever it is that you need to do. And I think it was very interesting what you alluded to there about this, you know, we talked about this fear on the inside of expressing yourself and this fear of you know how you're going to be, how you're going to be judged, and and but I think it's it goes beyond that because the fear may also be not just about how other people think about yourself, but the fear might be that if you honor yourself or if you really connect with what your own needs and wants are, you may drastically change your course in life and how you deal with these things. And goodness, what could that lead to? You know, there's a lot of uncertainty about that. It's much safer to just keep your head below the trenches and you know keep taking it on the chin. And uh and I think I think many of us might feel like it's a bit of opening a Pandora's box. If I start really honoring myself and listen to what I want. People might not like that.
Jackie Baxter: Yes, yes, and I guess that uncertainty as well, you know, like like you say, if you stay where you know you are, then you know it's it's the um oh what is it that the the nervous system will choose uh familiar pain over unfamiliar uncertainty. And you know, I I think that's kind of what you just alluded to, wasn't it? Where, you know, even if where we are doesn't feel great, you know, we're not living that authentic life, but at least it's the life we know. We understand it, we know what's going to happen. Whereas if we are to start making changes, maybe we might find, you know, the field might be greener on the other side, but we don't know. And that's terrifying, isn't it? You know, and I I think I think this is exactly the kind of experience that I had as I was coming out of my long COVID journey, where I started to. To understand the power of possibility, you know, because things were becoming possible. I was getting better and better and better. And I was able to do more and more and more things. And I remember thinking, gosh, isn't this exciting? I could do anything. Oh my goodness, isn't that terrifying? I could do anything. And it was kind of like the two sides of the coin. And, you know, in in the end, I suppose I was able to kind of step into a more authentic version of me, where I was able to leave behind the less authentic version of me. But it was, it was really scary. I found it really scary. And it was, it took time. And you know, as as you said a moment ago, you know, some of those changes were quite big changes, like where I decided not to go back to the job that I'd been working. Um, you know, that's that's a big decision. But that big decision was made up of lots of little changes that I had made throughout my recovery and, you know, day by day by day as I was going through that. So I think, you know, it's it's coming back to your point that, you know, some of those changes may look like big changes, but we don't have to start by quitting our job and moving to Antarctica. Uh, you know, we we could start off by trying to honour our needs a little bit better, or even starting to understand what our needs are, because I think a lot of us have never really looked into what that is. You know, what is it that makes you smile? What is it that you actually need? Um, you know, and and coming back to your thing about boundaries, that is really important. So I think, yeah, it's it's it doesn't have to be big things. You know, there's the analogy of the ladder, isn't there? You know, the ladder with the little steps that you take one step up at a time and that's manageable, whereas the ladder with the massive steps, you can't reach the massive steps, so you don't get anywhere. So I think you know, it's those little things that are really important, isn't it? You know, just start small if it feels overwhelming.
Dan Neuffer: If you take those really massive steps, that can really backfire. You follow up, you know, that that can that can go pear-shaped. Um, yeah, I I think it's really about connecting with your inner self rather than making huge changes. Because when you're not living your authentic self, your perception is distorted. Like you might say, Oh, this person, like uh someone in your family, they never care about me, they never I'm just gonna wipe them because you know what, I've got to look after myself, and that's it. But the problem is that you never gave them a chance to calibrate their behavior towards you because you never articulated your needs strongly enough, you know, and so that's why I always say to people, uh, try not to make drastic decisions early on. Just just wait till you get a bit better, start to live more authentically, and and and then later on you're in a better position to judge whether you need to make really big decisions, or you may find that actually things suddenly resolve themselves because of the way you communicate. Um but you know, you said something in there, and I don't know if you were referring to that famous mouse experiment. Um you said, you know, um, how did you word it? You said, you know, we we have a greater fear of the uncertainty than a pain that we know for sure, right? Is they they basically um I don't know when this was done, it's you know, neuroscience, they like to mess around with mice. And they uh as I remember this, and excuse me if I'm wrong here, but as I remember what they did is they they made it so that when the food uh they put food on a pad, and when the mouse went on a pad, it would
Boundaries, Honesty And Small Wins
Dan Neuffer: get a certain level of pain. So it had this choice to go in these two different, let's call them rooms, right? Uh uh little mouse rooms. And in the other one, they would also get pain, but it would come from a random pad that they stepped on when they went to get their food. And the interesting thing was the amount of pain that they would get from the random one physically was a lot less. They had a lot smaller shock than they did get from the one that where they definitely knew where was coming. They like knew if I go in here to get the food, bang, I'm gonna get sapped. And so all the mice ended up choosing the one that gave them more physical pain because they had certainty. There was no there was no surprise. You've got to choose do you want to be the mouse or do you want to choose a life with less pain? You know. If you look at why do we have fiction? Why do people read books with fiction? Because they want to have a different experience. They want to live vicariously through some character in a book. You know, it it's been natural for hundreds of years to seek adventure. What is adventure? It's you don't know what's gonna happen next. It's uncertainty. Because we've had this Goldilocks time since World War II. And it's been a bit longer than normal, right? So now you've had a couple of generations that have lived in this Goldilocks zone where everything is sort of stable, in the West, of course, only. I mean, there's many places around the world that are not like that at all. But in the West, I think everyone's become so connected to certainty as being the dominant, be safe and certainty, right? Uh, I mean, you know, even if you only go back to like the baby boomers, for them it was about being adventurous and and and and out there and all of this kind of thing, right? We'd have to go a long way back. But I think you've got to make a choice. Do I want to be certain and take the higher level of pain? Or am I prepared to go on an adventure and have some uncertainty and have less pain, but just not know when it comes.
Jackie Baxter: That's made me think, yeah, that's that's quite quite profound, I think that. Um so maybe that's a really nice place to stop. Um, so I think you know, this this has been this has been fascinating. I love chatting to you, Dan. We never, as I said, we never know quite where we're gonna end up. I didn't think we were gonna be talking about mice today, but uh, but we did. Um and uh, you know, I I think you know it really does come back to you know small things, you know, starting to be honest with ourselves, starting to communicate with ourselves and then to others, and and working out, you know, what is one thing that I could do, one little thing that I could do that might align me a little bit more with what I need and what I want rather than what I feel I should be doing. You know, it comes back to those wants, needs, and shoulds, doesn't it? Put your energy and your effort into the needs and the wants rather than the shoulds. And that can be really, really hard to do. But, you know, we we practice and we get better at it, right? You know, we don't we don't nail it the first time.
Dan Neuffer: You know, that's such wise words, Jackie. I mean, I I I hear people all the time and they always talk about these huge celebrations over these little choices. You know, the type of things that the other party doesn't, it's like they wouldn't even know something happened half the time. You know, the fact that you spoke up and said, Oh, I don't want that, or whatever. Because we think in our head it's always a big deal. Sometimes from the other from the other side, it's not, you know. In any case, the small those small wins are the path. That is the secret. It's not about the big crazy decisions, it's about the small things of
Uncertainty, The Mouse Study And Closing
Dan Neuffer: saying this is what I want, and from that, uh over time, a drastic new path can can form. I mean, if you go three degrees to your left, by the time you've walked a hundred kilometers, you are in a very different place, so it doesn't need to be huge to to have a different result. Um, so yeah, thank you for highlighting that importance of the little choices because I think that is the secret, that is the key to focus on.
Jackie Baxter: Yeah, amazing. Well, Dan, thank you so much. Um, this has been a wonderful way to start off my week. Um, and um, I'm excited to to find out what we're gonna talk about next. So thank you so much, and um, I'm sure, I'm sure we'll be back.
Dan Neuffer: Thank you, Jackie, and I appreciate you always make me think. And uh I I love when I talk to you and I get complete new insights into things and think about things in a way I haven't thought before. So uh it's it's been a pleasure.
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